In a recent post about Warner Bros. executives cutting a gay sex scene from the upcoming film “Alexander”, I mentioned that I thought it was the right decision ONLY based on the fact that I believe the general movie going audience doesn’t yet want to see that type of content in the movies they go to watch. I still stand by that, and I think the majority of the remarks made here and on other websites back that up. However, I was not trying to suggest the general movie going audience should or shouldn’t want to see gay sex scenes in movies… I was only remarking that they don’t.
I got an email from the good folks at the Internet Movie Data Base tipping me to the fact that the Spin Doctors over at WB are now backpedalling like crazy to get themselves out of the controversy by claiming they never “cut” and gay sex scenes from Alexander. You know what that means don’t you? It really means they stopped the scene before it was even filmed… which technically means they never “cut” or “deleted” it. Very slick. However, it raises the issue for me about how spinless and irrational Movie Executives… AND all of us are when it comes to the issues of Homosexuality and Abortion in films.
The problem on both fronts (as I see it) is that none of us want to enter into any sort of meaningful discussion on the issues. Instead of dialog, we tend to all sink to the level of hurling generalities and insults at each other. No one wants to look at these issues from the other sides point of view. Take the Gay issue for a moment… those who are “anti-gay” immediately start throwing terms like “gross” or “disgusting” or “perverted” around, never once taking into consideration the feelings of those on the other side of the fence, or the larger social spectrum when talking about it. The “pro-gay” side on the other hand immediately starts labeling people who don’t agree with them as homophobic or hate mongers. NO WONDER MOVIE EXECS DON’T WANT TO EXPLORE THESE ISSUES! We can’t even have an intelligent conversation about it… what big movie exec in the world would want to stick his / her neck out in that kind of hornet’s nest?
That all made me think about Abortion as well. Man are we dumb. I know a lot of people who are Pro-Life… and I know a lot of people who are Pro-Choice too. It strikes me that the true issue revolves around if you believe a fetus is a human being or not. I have yet to meet a Pro-Choice person who just wants to kill babies for their own convenience. To them it’s not taking a life, it’s just removing some tissue from their bodies BEFORE it becomes a person. If they’re right about that, then there’s nothing wrong with getting rid of it BEFORE if becomes a baby. And yet Pro-Lifers immediately start yelling and screaming insults at Pro-Choicers calling them “killers” and labeling them as people who would rather kill a child then put up with the inconvenience. On the other hand, I have yet to meet a Pro-Liferer that just wants to oppress women or take away their freedoms. To them, the fetus IS already a baby. If they’re right, then destroying the fetus IS killing, so wouldn’t they be monsters for not wanting to stop the killing of babies? And yet Pro-Choicers immediately start yelling and screaming insults at Pro-Lifers calling them chauvinists or just wanting to oppress women and keep them in their place. We are all so dumb. No wonder big movie execs don’t want to make an intelligent movie about the topic when none of us seems to be able to act rationally we talking about it. We’re all such children (me included).
So there you go. I think I’ve ticked off just about EVERYONE now. But I don’t care. We all need (me too) to start growing up and learn how to talk intelligently about this kind of stuff before we start demanding that movie makers take a stand and make movies that support our point of view. Let’s start talking to each other instead of insulting each other for not agreeing with us.
And if you don’t agree with me, then you’re a Nazi!!! :)
For all of you who think that abortion is simply removing a “ball of cells,” like you miles, i doubt you have ever faced the reality of abortion. If you want to see the most gruesome movie of your life, i suggest you goto :
http://www.abortionismurder.org/videos/hardtruth.wmv
This movie has footage from a real abortion. After watching this, i’m interested to see if you change your mind. Now obviously this website has an anti-abortion bias, but it still portrays the reality of it, so come to your conclusions based on that.
Do people honestly think that Alexander will show scenes of full on gay sexual sex! Films with grahic sex scenes (gay or hetro) soon become X-rated and join Debbie Does Dallas on the top shelf. No multi-million pound / dollar film would show full on sex of any type with the threat of losing its rating. Not that ratings mean much in American, as children of any age, as long as they are with an adult can gain access to almost any film (yet as a 26 year old man, I found it almost impossible to get served alcohol in the state of Florida without carry my bloody passport around!!!!, and don’t get me started on the mumerous back street gun shops!)
Gay/straight sex in a Hollywood Blockbuster will only ever be implied or suggested. A bit of a kiss a cuddle, maybe holding hands and leading each other off to bed. Surely the great North American public, who can watch Horror films at any age and carry enough arsenal to sink a battleship (as long as they aren’t under the influence of alcohol) can cope with that!
What a bunch of snooty-snootertons. I find gay sex to be… gay sex. Big deal. If it’s germane to the story, which is to say, something the character would do that lends itself to the writer’s vision, let the damn guys go at it. We’ve seen girls go at it — why is it any different?
I agree with you John. Warner Brothers is in the movie to provide entertainment to the WIDEST AUDIENCE possible. They are not a small art-house type of operation. They have a fully vertically and horizontally integrated global production, distribution and exihibition operation. Opening week-end is crucial for any movie whether it’s a limited release or a nationwide release. There IS a world between New York and Los Angeles and no matter what you think of these people they pay what money they have to go see movies. Warner Brothers and other studios do a lot of audience testing. The results may have come back that certain scenes that were uncomfortable for the audience that aren’t CRUCIAL to the entertainment value of the story should be cut. Warner Brothers has shelled out a ton of money to make “Alexander” a theatrical reality. And that’s not just to the actors but to production designers, caterers, construction crews, stunt people, extras, etc. They are looking for a return on their investment and they are not wrong in wanting to do so. Yes, they have to appeal to the widest audience possible. Duh! That is simply the type of operation they have. The fact that Warner Brothers green-lit the film with a script that included “those type of scenes” is huge in itself! And then they FILMED the scenes! And then Warners probably did an audience test to see what if anything should be cut. And they found out.
Don’t sweat the cutting of the gay scenes. Just wait for the DVD where I’m sure they’ll be put back in.
Crystal
(And, no, I don’t work for Warner Brothers)
Ah, the beatiful bliss we call opinions. Now before I state mine, allow me to point out that each of you are entitled to your opinion. That is the beauty of being a human.
Does your opinion make you right? No. Its just how you see or feel about a particular topic. I am sure Hitler thought what he was doing was right. It was his opinion, and he acted on it. Was he right in attempting the eradication of an entire culture? Im guessing no one will argue with me on that one.
Simple fact is that truth is NOT relative. Our good friend Miles stated that “everyone’s opinion is right because it is right to them” I can see what he was trying to get at, but he isnt entirely accurate. Miles was likely trying to say that everyone will THINK they are right because of a pre-existing opinion. It doesnt mean they ARE right. Either your opinion is right because of the basic truth that it IS right, or it is wrong and you just THINK it is right. What is true and right will always be true and right regardless of what you think of it. Truth is absolute. If it is not, then there is no reality.
John’s point was not to debate the issues of gays or abortion, but rather to point out how the general movie going public are not ready to deal with these contravertial issues. People will not be happy to just say “two men getting it on is gross” and not see the film that includes it. They will protest, and attack the film, and those who support it.
I have issues with anyone who would try to support a Tom Green movie. I havent seen one thing he was in that I found overly funny. Would it be right for me to prejudge people who find him amusing, or attack them on this basis? Would it be RIGHT for me to assume that they lack intelligence to find him funny? And would it be right for me to reject and discard their entire being based on one small insignificant choice they made?
Opinions make us stupid. Opinions themselves are not stupid, but what we do with them are. I dont think its wrong for Hollywood to remove the gay sex scenes. I agree that the general movie going public isnt ready to deal with it. That is all.
John did a fine job adressing this issue. These posts only prove his point as people instantly jump to discussing gays and abortion instead of his actual point that the public isnt ready to deal with issues like these in hollywood films.
Get me ranting about Star Wars and you will see first hand how opinions make people stupid. I like Star Wars. My opinion. Yes I have attempted to force this opinion on people. Yes I have become stupid at times when discussing it.
Its about how we deal with opinons that is making these movie execs make decisions like this. Its not their opinion that it is wrong, just that we movie goers are not ready to deal with it maturely.
John, just FYI, I once worked with a woman who also worked in an abortion clinic. Believe it or not, she took the stance that an unborn child is a person and abortion is murder but that it’s justifiable murder. I shit you not. Now, I know that such a position is untenable in its logical conclusions but , like you said, we’re idiots. And stupid.
“East is East, and West is West, and never the twain shall meet.”
There are certain things that many (some?) people consider core issues… things that (usually) cannot be swayed by argument.
Among these are abortion, homosexuality, the invasion of Iraq (ok, the last one is a stretch, but you get my point), etc.
To me, watching two guys getting it on in any way, shape or form, is gross. To me. My opinion. What? Am I going to lie and say it’s not just to be PC? If it’s not the same to you, fine. Miles made a good analogy with the concept of watching two obese people go at it (at the risk of offending obese people). They could be male/female, but that doesn’t mean I can stand to watch it.
We all have different thresholds of what we can or want to see. Some people enjoy going to ogrish.com and looking at mutilated bodies. Does it make me some kind of bad person if I don’t want to see that? As someone pointed out elsewhere, I think even the use of hetero sex scenes in movies is unnecessary to the story most of the time and is inserted (pardon the pun) just to get more people in the seats.
It depends on one’s point of view. The problem comes in when one side tries to force it’s views on the other. Each side wants it’s opinion respected but doesn’t want to give the same consideration to the other side.
Vic
Miles:
My Mistake, I apologize.
Triflic
I find the comments of the original poster offensive to Nazis. Expect a lawsuit in the mail.
;)
Let’s dissect Miles’ post, shall we?
Posit #1: relativisitc truth
“…everyone’s opinion is right, becasue it is right to them.”
Posit #2: ontological uncertainty
“The second you are so convinced you are right… is the second you are dead wrong.”
Posits 1 and 2 are either both false or individually true, but can’t be both true simultaneously.
If hate is the only criterion for limiting free opinion, who determines what opinions are hateful? But if all opinions are subjectively truthful, how can we propose to limit an opinion?
I thought the post was very unbiased and a good hard shake to some commenters from this, and previous, posts.
I didn’t see any disrespect to anyone apart from those people who can’t, or won’t, understand another persons beliefs or point of view.
Hi ModFab:
Well, thanks for making my point for me! Did you even read the post?!?! For the record, I have 2 very significant people in my life who are gay, probably more than you, and the whole point of the post is that we should all treat everyone with fairness and respect and stop name calling and insulting. Good greif man, I was practically taking your side… and still that isn’t good enough for you I guess.
You sir, are every bit as bad as those who insult gay people for being gay. Good job. Keep spreading the understanding and tolerance around my friend.
Stick to Hollywood gossip, Movie Blog. Politics and ethics are not your strengths. Someday, maybe you’ll see that gays are people, who deserve equality and fairness…and that they are not at all like abortion, which is about making a choice (as opposed to sexuality, which is not). It’s insulting even to make the comparison.
And maybe someday, you’ll realize that you have gay readers who deserve your respect. Or, make that former gay readers.
I don’t know. I think we’re confusing the issues of abortion and gay sex — two totally different matters here, one being used to support a discussion about the other.
For example, I can’t think of any cool movie ideas — outside of a Lifetime network movie — that would directly/blatantly revolve around abortion. However, gay sex might have worked well for the Lord of the Rings trilogy and X2: X-Men United. It would have explained a lot about the Hobbits….
triflic
read that sentence again very carefully.
“abortion will never be made illegal in North America”
indicating it is currently legal.
Umm…Miles, Abortion is Legal in Canada. Which happens to be located in North America. Perhaps you meant to say that Abortion will never be legal in ALL of North America, or just the U.S.
haha, yeah, we are a bunch of idiots.
I, unlike most of humanity happily embrace my idiocy and nuture it, not unlike how a gay sailor on shore leave embraces the first man who will have him. Or how a pro-lifer embraces a ball of cells and calls it a human.
what i am trying to say in some bizarre way, is that I have opinions.
everyone has opinions, and everyone’s opinion is right, becasue it is right to them.
the difference between my self and most people, is that I realize not everyone agrees with me, and that is alright. What is important, is that I am not trying to make anyone agree with me, that is where trouble starts.
The second you are so convinced you are right that your brain starts to turn off and you start to react by hurling big ol’ balls of hate, is the second you are dead wrong. Because I think we can all agree hate is wrong, and if that is the end product of what you are saying or doing, you are wrong.
So, the way I look at things is, let the people who make movies make whatever movie they want, if you don’t agree with it, don’t go see it. Because when it comes down to it, it is their movie, not yours, and it is their money, not yours.
The people who are making these movies are going to want to appeal to their target market groups, and if you are not in that target market group, then shut up, because the movie is not for you, and the people who the movie is made for don’t care about your opinion, because they have opinions of their own. Opinions they think are right.
Also, abortion will never be made illegal in North America, barring some sort of a dictator taking over. To many people agree with it, and no one will be able to change their minds.
As for homosexuality, i could not care less. But this is someting very simple to me. I am not sexually arroused by men, I do not want to see men in sexual positions. It does not appeal to me. Do you want to watch two hideously obese people make love? No? Wow, you must hate fat people!! You are going to hell!!! fatophobe!! fatophobe!!
so, in closing, live and let live, because no one really cares what your opinion is anyways you dirty fatophobe.