Recently one of our writers wrote a story from Wired that stated the largest copyright infringement lawsuit in US history was being filed that could name up to 23,000 defendants for downloading a copy of last year’s action hit The Expendibles. This post was removed because of the rampant off topic discussion that degenerated from the legitimate news story.
This off topic discussion sidestepped the story itself and some people chose to defend or justify movie piracy. This of course resulted in comments being deleted and people getting offended. No offense was intended, but it did inspire me to write a post about why TMB is so against discussion of piracy. Quite the opposite. We encourage discussion, but piracy cannot be “defended”. Discussion on the issue of piracy is supported. Defending or justifying piracy is an endorsement of the act, and has no place here.
I wanted to address a few things about piracy that are the FINAL WORD on the topic here at TMB regardless of what actions you choose.
No matter how you try to dance around it, justify it or make excuses for WHY you committed this act, it still remains illegal. Even if you don’t want it to be.
I wanted to break this down into simple terms to explain why we do not tolerate the promotion or endoresment of piracy here at TMB.
ITS THE LAW
This is not opinion. It is fact. Copyright exists purely to protect the Intellectual Property owner. Something created belongs to its creator. If that creator attempts to benefit financially from that property, Copyright Law allows that creator alone to reap the benefit of that product.
It is not only the RIGHT of that copyright owner to pursue legal action against those who would acquire, duplicate and redistribute their property (for financial gain or not), it is their DUTY to do so.
If the copyright holder does NOT enforce its copyright, then the copyright has no value.
The Copyright Notice at the beginning of every DVD that we always try to skip (and often cannot) clearly states that purchasing that DVD allows you to own that copy – in that format – for personal viewing purposes. If you buy a copy that comes with a digital copy, you have the right to own and view that as well. Distrubtion or duplication of the DVD is illegal. There is even an intimidating $250,000 fine warning should you ignore these terms.
To put it simply, if the product was not paid for, you stole it.
We just talked about the scary threats the copyright warnings issue. Mostly we don’t care because we bought the movie and just want to get on to viewing it.
What surprises me is that people are suddenly in shock and awe when they find out a studio or organization is filing lawsuits against people who have illegally acquired the movie or infringing on their copyright. How is this not expected?
Yes, I believe that the fine is exaggerated. It is meant to be. In most parts of the world you can receive a lesser charge for commiting sexual assault than commiting copyright infringement. Let me be clear about this – this is not a fault of copyright law, but a shortcoming of abuse laws That you or I have an opinion that the punishment does not “fit” this crime is irrelevant to the situation. It does not make it “ok” because the punishment is “too steep”.
The impact that piracy makes on the copyright holder is immeasurable. It cannot be definitively quantified into a specific number. They could make the fine a thousand dollars or a billion. It does not matter.
Excuse is a tricky word. As a noun it means “a reason or explanation put forward to defend or justify a fault or offense” however as a VERB, it means “Attempt to lessen the blame attaching to an offense, to seek to defend or justify”
When I say Excuses here, I am talking about the attempt to reason why this clearly illegal act is acceptable. Trust me, I have heard them all in my many years of writing for this site.
DVDs/Theaters cost too much!! This excuse gets to the core of why most people pirate movies, but they say it in a way that makes it sound like they DESERVE this financial break. They don’t want to pay for it. They do want to watch it, even own a copy. But they just can’t bring themselves to pay for it. Sorry. Not justification at all.
I own the DVD and want it in a different format While there is a tiny bit of fuzz in this logic, purchasing a dvd grants you a dvd copy. While digital copies are becoming far more popular on new releases this is not permission to illegally acquire a copy through piracy. In some countries you are permitted to make another copy for yourself for PERSONAL use (laptops/tablets and ipods etc) but this still doesn’t permit you to acquire them through illegal means.
They show it for free on TV that I pay for You don’t exactly “pay” for TV. You pay for a company to deliver that signal to your home. How you “pay” for the content is enduring exposure to commercials. More modern efforts allow us to bypass or ignore the commercials (or go pee) which I guarantee you the advertisers are well aware of. Commercial free movie channels and On Demand services are available at a premium. Again, you are paying for legal delivery. This does not justify pirating something you percieve is being freely broadcast. Even when TV episodes or events are streaming online from the official network’s website, you are exposed to sidebar ads and pre-roll commercials.
I can’t get it any other way This is the excuse that I sympathize with the most, however it doesn’t make it legal or even justifiable. Sometimes there is just no other way to get your hands on some forgotten gem of the past that doesn’t exist in any format you can purchase legitimately and you just HAVE to have it, or crave to watch it again. Sadly this does not excuse you because someone might understand the frustration you feel. Its your motive for the crime, but its still a crime.
Everyone does it This is the deflection I hear most often, and it is a symptom of the widespread activity, not its justification. Its a weasling trying to point a finger at mob mentality assuming that what you are doing is acceptable because everyone else is guilty of it as well. Everyone speeds in their car, but you cannot defend yourself if you get pulled over and get a ticket either.
It doesn’t hurt anyone. Dead wrong. There is a constant struggle for artists to get their work out there, to make a living and to get noticed. People assume that because the studios are swimming in money, it won’t hurt them if a handful of people steal a copy of the movie. Just like any business, they have to assume a certain degree of theft. Every retail organization budgets for product to be stolen. Doesn’t make it acceptable. You might think it doesn’t hurt the thief because the most obvious result is that DVDs and theaters are more expensive to compensate for this immeasurable loss of income. Thieves don’t care. They didn’t pay in the first place.
Consider this possibility. They make movies to make money. No mystery there. The studios are going to bank their money on films that they feel will reap the BIGGEST rewards at the boxoffice and other revenue streams (home video, merchandising etc) And you know what that means? Reboots, Adaptations and sequels. Existing fan bases with a measurable audience that is willing to spend money on these properties. People cry that there is no creativity left in Hollywood? To some degree, I suspect we can than the movie pirates for this.
There are some valid points brought up about piracy. Not in justifying it, but addressing piracy as a whole. Its affect on the industry, why it exists and discussing how people would address a solution. I have always felt that the best way to curb piracy is simply to provide your customers with an easy, affordable and effective way to aquire these films legitimately. Despite what some people have expressed, I guarantee you that the Studios are looking at this very seriously. Inevitably there will still be those who are unwilling to pay money and will still steal it.
The problem is like a gunfight. To end the fight, both parties have to lower their guns and put them away. The problem is that no one wants to go first. There is no trust here. The studios want to offer digital copies and easy access to their product. Of course they do. Its an alternative revenue stream. Digital copies cost far less to produce (hosting and bandwidth being the biggest expenses) but allowing one person to purchase a digital copy leaves that vulnerable pristine quality product in the hands of someone who might just leak it on the net for everyone to illegally acquire. Do you blame them for being reluctant? They are making the efforts, however this is coming slowly. Digital Rights Management (DRM) is a bad word, but only for pirates.
These piracy websites also try to dodge the bullet of responsiblity. They all list disclaimers stating they do not host the files themselves but simply point to where the files are for you to pirate. And if you do not understand the protocol of torrents, when you download, you are also sharing. You ARE the distributor before you even completely download the file you are not paying for.
The whole point of this is to illustrate that you cannot justify or defend piracy. At the end of the day, people pirate products because they don’t want to pay for it. Regardless of what motive or excuse they present or clever deflection they provide, it is still illegal.
And this is purely why we delete comments that point to torrent sites, or when a commenter says they will not go see the movie in the theater but they might download it, or when someone tries to make a case for why they feel it is acceptable to steal a movie.
Removing these weak rationalizations from the comment section is not to pass judgement on you. You are responsible for your own actions. This is simply not something that has ANY place on our website. And will continuously be removed.
Don’t be offended if you support piracy in a comment and the comment disappears. EXPECT IT.
We love movies and we come here to share the love of movies. The money I pay for DVDs and Theater Tickets is entirely out of a love for the artform and to financially support the people who create them. I will not dishonour this by allowing people to promote piracy here.
That is what this site is about. It is a testament that others are as passionate about Hollywood films as I am. We love Movies. We hate some movies. Some movies we love to hate.
I might feel ripped off if I pay for a movie that sucks, but I will never deny a filmmaker the right to make a living trying to convince me to see a movie.
Yeah this is sobering stuff, where technological advances have outstripped traditional distribution methods. I wonder where it will all lead? Personally I would love to pay an art premium with my broadband ISP fee which could be used as a regional fund for re-couping artists for downloads. Alot of things to consider there tho.
“By using a torrent client, you are actually redistributing the file to any number of other leeches at any given time. It is impossible to determine the exact amount of redistribution your acquisition of the file resulted in.
The fines do sound like they are ridiculous, however since the potential is immeasurable, they can fine anywhere up to the legal maximum as determined by a judge. This is not a flat rate. It is “up to” the maximum depending on circumstance.”
Its certainly true that its possible to know how many people you distributed a torrent to. It just seems that that is being used as an excuse to go for as much as possible. Like a “We can’t calculate what the actual damages will be so we’ll just pull a really large number out of a hat.” calculation for damages.
“If they charged exactly what you stole, there would be no incentive NOT to wait for a fine. You steal a $20 movie and hold your breath wondering if you are going to be fined $20 for it? Fines are created to be a deterrent to the crime and need to be appropriately threatening. These pirates who make thousands a day reselling copies/charging for streaming access to the files/advertising on their torrent sites. They could care less about a thousand dollar fine.”
That’s what convictions and punishments (like not being allowed to own a computer and stuff) are for. Sure those pirates care less about a thousand dollar fine it just seems that going for $100,000 per song is excessive.
Back in the days of actual piracy it wan’t the thought of losing their treasure that motivated people not to get into piracy, it was the threat of prison and/or execusion. Now of course that doesn’t mean we should execute today’s digital pirates (although I like the prison idea).
“I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it”.
I am obviously 100% against movie piracy. With that being said, in my opinion, if anyone doesn’t share my opinion and expresses their opposing view in a polite and fair way, then I will listen to their opposing view no matter how much I disagree with it.
I think it is a very dangerous precedent to say “on this topic, this is OUR official position, and we will not tolerate any expression to the contrary”. By all means, delete comments that insult other community members or the post author… but squashing discussion for no other reason than it contains opposing views is dangerously unhealthy. Just my opinion.
I am always open for discussion about the topic. I dont delete just because I disagree. I have never said that I wont tolerate expression to the contrary, however people posting links to torrent sites or insisting they are just going to download a film? Those comments do not support the industry or further a conversation about the topic.
And I face “opposing views” every day on this site. I don’t delete people who disagree with me.
You said in the post: “Don’t be offended if you support piracy in a comment and the comment disappears. EXPECT IT.”
That is exactly what you’re doing. I completely 100% support your position that is someone puts up some sort of illegal link that you should remove that comment immediately. Absolutely. No questions asked.
However, saying things like “Defending or justifying piracy is an endorsement of the act, and has no place here.” is just… well… questionable to say the least.
If you put up a post involving Piracy, and I decide to comment on how and why I personally believe piracy is justifiable… you’re saying you’re going to delete that post. You are not inviting conversation or debate if you refuse to allow the opposing view into the discussion at all. You are forbidding a relevant point of view on a topic simply because you deem it the wrong one (so do I). This is inherently dangerous Rodney, and flat out poor policy.
Delete spam comments. Delete comments that get personal or insult community members or authors. Delete radically off topic comments. I support and encourage all this stuff… but to delete comments purely on the basis that they take a differing position than you on a particular topic is extremely ill-advised my dear old friend. Re-think it.
Very well said John and I agree completely 100%. Which is funny because I usually found myself disagreeing with you when you ran this blog.
BTW I saw you at the end of a “Kitchen Nightmares” a few weeks ago.
The thing about piracy is that the quality of the pirated film is usually so much worse than the real thing. I would much rather watch a movie the way it was meant to be displayed to the world, not by some person who sneaked a camcorder into a theater. Sure, movie tickets are not exactly cheap, but why should they be? When you buy a movie ticket, you aren’t just paying to see a movie. You’re paying for the whole movie-going experience, the kind of experience that can’t be simulated anywhere else. When you download a pirated movie online for free, you can expect a cheap product (and experience) in return.
Wow, lots of comments. To many to read through with limited time, but I will say this:
“The impact that piracy makes on the copyright holder is immeasurable. It cannot be definitively quantified into a specific number.”
This is a fallicy. The impact to the copyright holder is the price lost of the sale. There is no other loss, for the simple reason that there was nothing more to gain from the piracy not happening.
I know people might try to say that because of lost sales it impacted their future ability to get investors, but if the sale was never going to happen in the first place then that money would never have appeared on their earnings report anyways.
The amount of money that people that pirate typically is very limited and they would most likely only had bought a small percentage of the things they pirated. The money they would have spent that on would have most likely gone to things that are already popular and making money and have no worries of where the funds for their next project will come from.
If the movie industry is anyting like the music industry it most certainly is about money (which makes me laugh when I hear claims that its about the artists). Yes piracy is wrong but some of the payout amounts in these lawsuits are just off the hook.
If its not about the money then why not award damages based on the value of what was pirated? Getting caught with 20-30 movies should not result in hundreds of thousands in damages unless distribution can actually be proven (none of that “well if they downloaded it they must have been distributing it others” stuff). (Likewise with music. People getting cause with a few hundred songs but have to pay millions. Nonsense.)
By using a torrent client, you are actually redistributing the file to any number of other leeches at any given time. It is impossible to determine the exact amount of redistribution your acquisition of the file resulted in.
The fines do sound like they are ridiculous, however since the potential is immeasurable, they can fine anywhere up to the legal maximum as determined by a judge. This is not a flat rate. It is “up to” the maximum depending on circumstance.
If they charged exactly what you stole, there would be no incentive NOT to wait for a fine. You steal a $20 movie and hold your breath wondering if you are going to be fined $20 for it? Fines are created to be a deterrent to the crime and need to be appropriately threatening. These pirates who make thousands a day reselling copies/charging for streaming access to the files/advertising on their torrent sites. They could care less about a thousand dollar fine.
I don’t think as many had an issue with going after piracy so much as the fact the lawsuit isn’t getting the biggest perpetrators. This doesn’t solve much and it stinks of being only about getting money, not fighting the problem. Why not nail the rippers? The uploaders? The people behind these shares or the overseas rips?
It’s a joke and farce, and that doesn’t make piracy OK or legal, but piracy doesn’t legitimize what they are doing, either.
As for movie prices I damn sure vote with my dollar. Given how ticket prices are so high (but I personally think the prices for snacks are even worse, come on $3 for a 20oz drink?) I don’t go that often. I’m talking only about 5 times a year at the very most. As of right now I haven’t been to the theater since Deathly Hallows Pt. 1 and will probably not go again until Pt. 2 later this summer (thanks to a friend in college I’ve made it a bit of a tradition to see every Harry Potter film at the theater).
And beyond the theater I pretty much just wait for DVDs and grab them through Blockbuster Online (which I’m currently waiting til my next pay day so I can switch to Netflix where I can do streaming and DVDs for one price rather than pay extra at Blockbuster Online). Yeah it puts me behind on the latest movies (btw I still haven’t seen Iron Man 2 if that’s an indicator) but I just can’t put up with those prices.
But considering now that studios are literally grasping at any straw they can for profit (like that $30 deal that was mentioned here a week or so ago or how studios are pretty much bullying the likes of Netflix to delay hit movies in hopes of getting more DVD/blu ray sales) they may just greed themselves right out of wallet forever.
The internet is too vast, stopping illegal downloads won’t work, but preventing people from doing it with scare tactics, DVD’s having more special unrealesed features, would slow it!
I also agree that the penalty for personal use copyright infringement is severe. I think I had read somewhere that the penalty guidelines were originally drafted to address commercial for profit copyright infringement not personal use infringement. Not sure about the truth worthiness of that position but it seems accurate. The outrageousness of those penalties unfortunately deteriorates the credability of the copyright laws in the eyes of the public thereby reducing there effectiveness.
I just want to point out that piracy was compared to child pornography….
In all seriousness though, Rodney has a point. You can feel ripped off, I do, but I also know that I was the one who made the choice to see the film in the first place.
And I think people were surprised about the lawsuits because nobody thought it would actually happen. The charges are always a risk but nobody expects to be caught. Perfect reasonable for everyone to be surprised. On a side note: The fact that one can get charged more for piracy than sexual assault was it? That is soooooooo disgusting on so many levels.
I have been reading this thread and I give Rodney lots of credit for keeping it looking clean. Lots of good opinions going on and its good to see it civil.
Corey makes a great point about borrowing your friend’s movies. Studios would sue you for doing so if they could. Duh, they want to make money and it’s business.
I will not be swayed by any moral premise that defends the studio, because the studio’s actions are not morally driven themselves. Duh as well.
I could perhaps be swayed by a moral premise that illustrated how digital piracy affected the well being of a person or peoples.
I don’t feel that the latter is the case to be honest. I’m not worried if the rich get richer slower.
Regardless, suing 23,000 people will scare some people off, but probably embolden others. Think Sony Playstation 3.
Why NOT defend the studios? They are the ones spending their money and risking millions on the hopes that a whole pile of you buy their product.
You make it sound like these studios are WRONG for pursuing and protecting their product. Your entire basis of right and wrong seems to stem from a “stick it to the man” attitude.
You cannot justify theft just because you hate the people they are stealing from.
“Corey makes a great point about borrowing your friend’s movies. Studios would sue you for doing so if they could. Duh, they want to make money and it’s business”
That’s not a ‘good point’. As long as the friend does not charge you to see his bought DVD, and Cory does not charge admission or copy it when he watches it, the studios – much less the FBI- would care less.
Piracy will never go away. It will only get easier. This is beyond ethics at this point..it’s really irrelevant. People can argue for the good and the bad, but ultimately people are going to do it and there is no way anyone is going to be able to prevent it 100%.
Crime will never go away. Should we do away with the police as well then? What’s the point.
I hate when people try to justify things that are illegal, like same sex marriage. It is illegal, leave it alone. Stop trying to fight for your cause, it makes you look as stupid as people who try to justify downloading movies.
Sarcasm.
I’ll chime in again in the form of a question:
When you guys say “Download” does that mean getting the file on your computer so that you can rip a copy at some point? or does it also apply to those site that let you “View” the movie and not necessary downloading it to your hard drive.
(or is it lawfully/technically the same thing?)
enquiring mind wants to know
Websites that stream illegal copies of movies are also illegal. They are violating copyright, and by accessing that information you are partaking in the same violation of copyright.
and they fill your computer w/ spam and crap..
thanks for the answer.
but it is hard to track a person that watches and even downloads using this way which is why it is necessary to go after the sites supporting piracy
also am i on a watch list or in trouble for something cause my comments keep getting deleted
I take it it also applies to buying a new film from the “DVD guy” that always shows up on fridays.
even though he somehow has “DVD” copies that are not handheld filmed.
as far as cracking down on pirating, what if grandma gets fined cause unknowingly little timmy was downloading his disney movies cause his cousin showed him how?
I dont support piracy but u should have to be proven guilty in court,i know im not always in control of my laptop. from what i can recall, using information from someones email as evidence to accuse someone is dismissed in court. too lazy to continue this thought process… lol
If you feel it necessary to delete comments of people saying they don’t feel bad so they do it then that’s fine. It’s not progressing the conversation. But not accepting the studio’s framing of the argument and pointing out their flaws can appear to be defending pirating. First off just because something is illegal doesn’t make it wrong. The law isn’t always right. Not everything that is illegal should be. Two big issues of things that are illegal that shouldn’t be are marijuana and gay marriage. So just taking the stance that it is illegal so it’s wrong isn’t a good one. The reason that there are such outrageous fines that are so much more than real crimes like assault or rape are because the studios have the money to lobby Congress. Again, studios make the Massive assumption in their argument that every download costs them money. You CANNOT make that assumption. The studio would have never seen a dime from many of the people that do choose to download. They just simply would have never seen the movie. Instead of waiting to borrow the movie from someone they know they instead borrowed a file over the computer. I personally just struggle to see the difference between downloading movies and people sharing them. By downloading a movie the studio says that it is wrong because the person saw the movie without having to pay for it and it takes money away from the studio. By me lending my movies to my friends that ask to borrow them my friends are viewing that movie without paying for it and subsequently taking money away from the studio. Nixon makes a great point, if the studios want to cut down on this then they should be doing a better job of tracking their screener copies which is what usually ends up online while movies are in theaters. To me, that seems like it would be a Much more efficient way of cracking down on the availability of torrents than trying to use massive fines to scare people out of downloading. Although I have never chose to download a movie before and likely never will I just don’t feel that the movie studios are 100% correct in their stance. I do apologize for the length of my response but I feel it is important to point out flaws in the studio’s argument and I strongly feel they are wrong in the way they are addressing the issue.
It isn’t an issue of deleting comments that say they don’t feel bad. Its the people who use that as a justification for piracy, endorsing the practice and trying to deny it is illegal.
“just because something is illegal doesn’t make it wrong.” That might be true when it is subjective cultural restrictions like “women can’t vote” or “gays can’t marry” but this is not a subjective issue.
Piracy is stealing. Stealing is wrong. 90% of the law deals with possession, and it is very clear that this is a non-issue. Piracy is illegal.
Yes, there are always better ways to curb piracy and I am certain that the studios will try many of them. Some will work, and some wont.
I agree with the poster. The issue of righteousness is separate and stealing is a subjective issue. the classic exame being if you were literally dying of thirst in the desert and you happen across a small shop that was closed, but had water for sale and easily reachable on their shelves. Would it be “wrong” to take that bottle of water with the expectation that you would pay if you had money? Would the shop owner believe you were wrong? What if you intended to pay once the shop opened? What if the shop was closed for the week? These are all valid questions and the action of taking the bottle of water from the closed shop is stealing, but stealing is a subjective issue here and all of these questions are valid and inspire thought that collectively make us better understand right and wrong.
Meant to say that the issue of right and wrong is subjective, not the issue of whether or not it is stealing because it is stealing. Anyway, again I think piracy is wrong just happen to think it is subjective. Anyway, I do appreciate our dialogue and think this really important to a good blog… Thanks Rodney.
Rodney,
Here again you are taking too narrow of a viewpoint. Ryan brings up a very good point about the difference between sharing a DVD or a movie file. It could even be extended to VHS recordings or audio recorded mix tapes. There are a large number of ways to get media, some include you legally recording something (time shifting) with VHS, DVR, etc… Some involve copying what you have purchased legally. Some involve fair use, such as sharing what you bought physically with a friend or repalying the show on your DVR to your neighboors. I don’t remember the RIAA suing 23,000 high school students for making mix tapes. Maybe I missed that when I was younger.
What we are seeing today is a certain set of specific laws that are not crafted well that the MPAA/RIAA use to generate revenue. That they use this tactic in place of a good business model to attract consumers makes it all the more baffling.
Piracy is bad. Anyone that spends a couple years on a project would be saddened to see all their profits evaporate by rampant piracy. I can sympathize with that. But what is actually causing that piracy? Is it the screener copies being released? I can guarantee if the movie is cheap and affordable and easy to play on many devices without DRM hassle, then people will still buy it. DVD represented that and look how popular that format became!
Anyway, I think the issue is a little more complicated than simply saying “It’s wrong.” It’s only “wrong” because it’s a law. A law can be changed at any time. It’s not illegal to share a DVD with a friend. Now if they made that a law tomorrow then I guess it would be illegal.
I think what some are advocating is a relook at how the laws are crafted and for the studioes to ease up on suing to make up revenue differences because they can’t adapt to the new internet market.
Fritz, you are completely wrong about the MPAA and RIAA. They are enforcement agencies and do not profit directly from these lawsuits. This is not a “revenue stream” for them.
Secondly, while some laws need to be challenged (gay marriage etc) because they are debatably unjust, stealing is stealing. This is not a law to be followed simply because it is the law. It is a just law and a just principal.
Possession is 90% of the law. Stealing is the better part of what that law protects.
The RIAA and MPAA are being used by the studios to bring in more money. There is plenty of things to address with them, such as how their fines should be a violation of the 8th Amendment, but that is a different discussion entirely. From my point of view I fail to see how a person can share a movie with every person they know (and I am all the time lending out my movies to people who want to see them and not buy them) and it be perfectly legal but if they share it online it is theft and illegal. It is the same action.
Let me ask you this Rodney. If piracy was no longer legally called theft and sharing a movie or song online was no longer considered illegal, would you have the same stance?
The question is moot Corey. It is not “considered” theft because of some moral grouping. It is by very definition a theft. Its like asking if Theft was no longer illegal would you still feel violated if someone took your stuff. Theft is theft. Copyright violation is theft.
Its not ever going to not be theft. Copyright exists to protect intellectual properties – products that can exist without physical form.
Loaning out a movie to a friend is not at all the same as downloading or “sharing” online. You are not creating more copies of the film when it is loaned out. Pirating a movie online reproduces the digital file and redistributes it. This is the very definition of copyright violation. It is a completely different act.
“Theft is theft”. Ok, but when theft occurs something is usually taken is it not? If you steal something from a store, the store can no longer sell that item. If someone stole my car I could no longer drive it because it is not there. If someone steals an idea they can no longer use it because the idea is out there already. But when a torrent is shared online a studio isn’t prevented from releasing say a movie into theaters or onto dvd. And the person with the original copy isn’t charging others for it so no one else is making a profit off of it. When you look at the fact that attendance in theaters has stayed relatively constant over the last decade and the studios are seeing record profits it is hard to say that the studios are being harmed by the practice at all.
@Corey, you say “when theft occurs something is usually taken is it not?”
I simply cannot see how you figure something has NOT been taken when someone downloads/copies a movie. It’s not an issue of “not able to sell that item” That is just an uniformed narrow perspective attempting to justify the act. The excuse sounds fine when you remove the big picture and without giving it any thought it might even make sense. But it doesn’t at all.
“If you steal something from a store, the store can no longer sell that item.” Well the store isn’t selling the product to the person enjoying that movie for free now either? That’s a measurable loss vs potential gain.
Consider this. If you owned a store selling THINGS, and there was a guy on the sidewalk in front of your store selling copies of your THINGS would you not feel this is a direct effect on your business? Would you not feel that he is taking from your ability to generate a profit? Would you not instinctively and justifiably want to kick his ass away from your potential customer base?
But that guy isn’t “stealing” from you. He just has copies he is distributing for free that are produced violating your copyright. Your RIGHT to be the one who sells that THING. By your logic, he “isn’t doing anything wrong,” but its certainly affecting your business isn’t it?
Copyright protects these non-physical products. It also protects “ideas” in that if someone “steals an idea” that you had proof you put out first, you absolutely have the right and responsibility to sue/charge/complain about that person.
And again, your limited view suggests that theatres are not affected. Pirates are a small minority of people viewing these films, still they are not otherwise attending a theater to see it, so it is affecting them. Attendance numbers are NOT the same, and other factors like availability/ location and screens also factor in. Theatres are making about the same money, but they are finding different ways to do it (ticket prices, food, 3D premiums)
However this is not the only consideration. The studios also make money from home video markets and rentals as well. This is a rapidly changing market and piracy is very much affecting it. There are fewer video rental stores now than there were 20 years ago when home video was the ONLY alternative to the theaters.
I find your weak defence falls under the above “It’s not hurting anyone” excuse and is based on a very limited viewpoint. Your statement and justification cannot hold up to scrutiny. Sorry.
But in your defense of the studios you seem to be making the same assumption that they do in that every download is a loss of money to them. That is an assumption that simply cannot reasonably be made. Yes there is a possibility that by downloading a movie the studios lost out on that person going to a theater to see it. But it is also 100% Just as likely that they were either never going to see it or they were going to wait until they found someone with the movie on dvd and borrow it which means the studios were never going to see a dime from that person.
From the National Association of Theatre Owners’ own statistics admission has been constant from 98-09. Granted I haven’t seen 2010 numbers but NATO’s numbers show that for that recent 11 year span numbers ARE the same. At this same time profits are going up. When you add in the fact that ticket prices are going up faster than the rate of inflation and we’ve hit a recession the fact that admissions have stayed constant says something. This makes it very difficult to believe your argument that this practice is hurting the industry. It also shows that it’s not my “limited view” that says theatres aren’t being affected, the actual attendances numbers help to show that.
I also don’t understand where movie rental businesses like Blockbuster have any place in this discussion. Yes, it is a fact that there used to be many more. Ok? Are you implying that downloading has caused places like Blockbuster to have to close so many stores? Because that seems like it would be a Very misleading argument against piracy since Netflix and RedBox are really what did those in.
As for your example, yeah you would want to do something. It is just an issue of if you have the ability to do something. Your narrow view in defense of the studios I think blinds you from seeing that their reasons for hating and attacking it aren’t infallible.
the only thing i have a problem with this piracy thing is dont go after the customers go after the dealers shut down pirate bay etc. and it cant be impossible to find a pirate but i never hear of a movie pirate being caught and fined.
I must say though that pirating is completely legal in many third world countries :)
A person stops being a “customer” the moment they choose to steal the product you are selling.
They are not suing customers. They are going after the thieves. The people downloading these files are just as guilty (and by using Torrents they are also distributing while they download)
And very often the distributors of pirated materials are arrested as well.
Remember Napster? Limewire? and there have been lots of Torrent sites that come and go because they are shut down for piracy. Just recently we wrote about the guy who leaked the X-Men Origins Wolverine workprint being charged. It does happen.
The principal behind suing the “customer” as you put it, is that if they reduce the audience willing to frequent these piracy websites, they can reduce the demand for these thieves.
good points on the wolverine pirate and limewire but still pirate bay is out in the open and nothings happening a hit on pirate bay would save Hollywood a lot of trouble
also i dont think pirates make a lot of money off casual torrenters that get movies for free so going after customers of free torrenting sites wont help too much
Those “free” torrent sites have many ads on their pages, and they get more traffic than me.
I do this site for “free” too.
That’s a self-righteous POV, Rodney, and I’m legitimately happy it makes you feel better about yourself to say such things. It’s also 100% unhelpful in getting people to stop pirating.
Burning down the population, scorched-earth style, is certainly one way to win a war, but if there’s nothing left afterward, what good does it do to you? Going after tens of thousands of people willy nilly means you’re going after your own costumers. Yeah, they’re costumers too, because they’ve paid to see movies and *will pay again* under the right circumstances. Haven’t you ever heard of the saying, “don’t throw out the baby with the bathwater?” That absolutely applies here.
The key is to create those ‘right circumstances,’ which means going hard after the people who leak these pirated films to begin with — remove the capacity to put out high-quality bootlegs and much of the problem goes away. People do *not* want to watch shaky-camera crapfests. But, with two sides to the coin in getting people into the theater — quality and cost — cost absolutely comes into play, too. No one expects movies to be cheap, but studios and theaters shouldn’t price-gouge, either. I’ve never had a problem with $10 tickets, but adding 50% of that cost for a reused pair of 15-cent-to-manufacture glasses isn’t going to bring more people into the theater, which is ultimately a bad thing for the industry, particularly long term.
Remember, there’s two sides to this. Piracy is wrong, but so is price gouging. Theaters and studios have to deal with both of those problems, they don’t have a choice, but we could certainly help them along the way by making sure neither side of that coin is forgotten.
Ryan it sounds like your saying that movies should be price regulated which is a bad idea
piracy is not going to go away except by legal action
i still think they should go after the big torrent sites but i think i know why they dont: they dont want to spend money and time fighting a most likely well supplied group that could be a tough takedown so instead they are going for a quick cash grab not the root problem
Vote with your dollar. It’s the only one that counts anymore.
Notice how none of this discussion has been deleted…..
Rodney is perfectly right. Discussion is one thing but meaningless banter trying to justify something that is illegal is not only pointless but quite frankly annoying and just takes up space.
To be fair, a couple have. Some people still felt it was necessary to make comments like “if I don’t feel bad, its not wrong” kind of nonsense defense.
Oh, and a spammer trying to advertise knockoff purfumes.
Jeffrey Dahmer probally never felt bad either….
;)
When comments are yanked before you see them doesn’t mean they were never there.
this article makes me want to see if a pirated version of preist is out yet.
i kid i kid
and also there really is nothing to disagree with. It is either you do it or you don’t.That funny thing is to try and use morals and laws to set up a internal morality clause in your head. We are all sinners but to sin for the purpose of a smile should not be a crime. Most of the people using torrents are not profiting on the film.
Good for the self righteous. I also love the ass kissing. I get raped yearly for taxes and no one does anything about it. 99% of all my money goes to things I object to. I am a criminal just like all humans. Funny that you made a topic in which most people abuse yet there really is no way to fire back. Kinda sad. Also on the last poster about the cooks and set prep etc. All those are union jobs and have no connection to the end gross amount a movie makes. Sorry but entertainment of the audio and visual should not be horded by an a elite few. Laws are purely man made boundy’s that people follow….kinda like if you run over armadillo in texas you get jail time…
To quote a line from Resevior Dogs opening scene(coffee shop):
“Fuck it! you’ve convinced me…Now gimme my dollar back”
:)
Big Sampson speakin’ the real shiznit!
Yes they are union, but the fact of the companies being stolen from, still has an effect on the other areas. If they didn’t have to safe gaurd everything from piracies the people that run the theaters (part of etc) could do better. I believe it was this site that had how much profit actually gets made by theater owners. They jack up the prices because the studios do, they don’t actually make a large profit (theater owners). So it all trickles down just like stealing from a local corner store – extra security, cameras they all cost money, and that money has to come from somewhere. So add anywhere from 5 cents to each item up to $2 they are going to try to pay for security through the public, which some are the ones that are stealing from them.
And if you don’t like the taxes, then move to a place that doesnt have the same taxes, but if you do kiss all the wonderful things you have good bye. We choose to live where we do and how we do, people can always move or change the things they have. Complaining about the taxes shows little appreciation for the luxuries we are afforded. You don’t have to drive, you don’t have to go to movies, you don’t have to have high speed Internet or computers- this is something you CHOOSE.
Good on you,
My brother is in the film industry and not only is it the creative people that get affected by this. Every single person that works on these films is affected by the piracy as well. There are thousands of people that go in daily to cook, clean, set prep, site prep, etc . Imagine some one stealing from you on your job, it’s not so fun then. My wife and I absolutely love sitting down and watching movies together, we have a pretty good collection and everysingle one was payed for. If you can’t afford the new one – get the previously viewed for 1/3 the cost.
Bravo, Rodney! This is what I love about this site. It is full of people that are passionate about movies and will not support the diminishing of the industry. Delete comments at will! People who support or engage in movie piracy have no place here amoung movie lovers.
I remember the problem that Hollywood had with having the VCR in the home… they were afraid that people would begin recording shows and movies that were broadcast and keeping a catalog of them at home, cutting into their profits (and back then to own a copy of Star Wars on VHS would run you about $200). but the studios found a way to survive and move on. the world is a lot different now, and i can understand the worry the studios have right now. almost anything and everything is just a mouse click away. and most of the pirated things that show up on the vast (and mostly trojan infested) majority of torrent sites are things leaked by people who get “preview” copies of the movies; people who work in Hollywood. the days of the shaky cam or now cell cams are pretty much gone. i think that if you crack down on who has these copies of the movies, begin tracing the leaks back to the source, while you may not be able to eliminate the problem, you can at least begin to stem the blood flow. sure punish those that are taking the film illegally online, but the heavier fine should be for the person that put it there in the first place.
A big thumbs up to this comment. Studios have to win back the internet crowd, and that’s not going to happen by throwing the baby out with the bathwater in the form of mass lawsuits against tens of thousands. “Targeted strikes,” as the military would say, is where the action should be directed — nabbing the people who are leaking these movies to begin with. Studios need to stop looking at internet piracy as all-out warfare and look at the leakers as a metaphorical terrorism; precision, intelligence is what’s needed, as well as delivering a good, well-priced product to win over the movie-going population. People don’t want shaky-camera crapfests anymore than they want $16 Captain America tickets.
Theft is Theft no matter at what level.
If you think any different, Tell it to the judge.
just sayin
I agree with Rodney.
1. Theft is theft.
2. Allowing links to movie torrents promotes theft.
3. If TMB wants to remain on the right side of the law, it cannot turn a blind eye toward criminal activity.
The fact is, users post links to torrents in hopes of connecting with other thieves who can further their own criminal activities.
On a personal note, I HATE (and typically avoid) reading blogs that are full of irrelevant posts (e.g., links to torrents) or spam. It’s 2011 for crying out loud! If you want to find a torrent, there’s a little search engine out there called Google.
Thank you, TMB, for putting your foot down in order to keep this site topical and relevant. It’s why I visit you EVERYDAY.
I agree that it is a little disturbing when comments start getting deleted that are not offensive or inappropriate. This is a trend that I have seen a lot more of lately and it is both disappointing and upsetting. I have been a long time reader and truly enjoy this blog. I believe that more importantly than being illegal, piracy is not right. However, neither is censoring discussion on one side of an issue you raised in an article. Comments are a place for readers and no one would ever argue that TMB is supporting piracy merely by not deleting comments on the subject. I suggest reconsideration of comment censorship. Thanks. Now back to movies…
Also, you made the comment regarding rationalization of piacy “This is simply not something that has ANY place on our website.”
This was the thought that bothered most, for two reasons. First, this “website” happens to be a “blog” which by definition has a comment forum. Which in this movie watchers opinion should be open. Secondly, you describe this blog as “your” website which strikes against this reader’s opinion that this, and any other blog, is a community since by definition a blog is interactive as opposed to a static website. Just a thought.
Would you tolerate open discussion trying to justify child pornography?
While the two crimes are not at all related but they do carry a common detail. It is something that has no place to be defended.
I am not saying people cannot do it. They shouldn’t and they still will choose to do what they want. Piracy does not help anything but your own selfish needs to acquire something you didn’t pay for. There is nothing more to it.
It cannot be defended, and those who choose to make arguments to defend it are simply trying to deflect the guilt of their own actions to rationalize and justify that the theft does not make them thieves. It still doesn’t change anything.
We can discuss how piracy affects the industry as a whole, even suggest ways that might fix it. But none of that justifies it.
And this is MY site. There is a LOT of moderation that goes on daily here at this site to keep things open, friendly and free for you to discuss. If you saw how much comment spam advertising and trolling that gets blocked and deleted from this site it is amazing I get anything done!
Like I said, obviously piracy is illegal and more importantly it is not right. We are in total agreement. I, personally, just don’t like comment moderation of appropriate discussion based posts. I didnt see the deleted posts so I don’t know if they were inflammatory or not. But to answer your question, if I had a blog and raised the issue in my blog of child pornography (obviously a much graver issue) I certainly would not delete posts that were defending these acts as long as those commenters were not cursing or being inflammatory. Most people would read them, if those chose to, and realize that commenter was a cook and they certainly would not think that I was supporting that view point merely by leaving that comment up. Trying to cover up an ideology, however, can be counterproductive and can obfuscate our attempts at trying to challenge those viewpoints and change minds. I personally believe knowledge is power no matter how you slice it and the more we learn the better off we are.
Yes, it is your blog and obviously you can do whatever you want. I am just a loyal reader for a long time and wanted to offer my input regarding comment censorship for what it’s worth. But I have nothing but love for you and this blog so let’s get back to the movies. I personally can’t wait for some TTOL reviews coming next week!
Just a suggestion… It is hard to read the last half of the post with strong tags around everything.
I don’t support piracy, but I think the purity control of comments of differing viewpoints is absolutely absurd. It’s your website, do what you want with it, but acting like a tyrant isn’t going to get you more comments and hits for the site, nor will it reduce the amount of piracy. I don’t say that to be mean, but to be honest. I hope you’ll take that criticism for what it is, constructive.
If you want to tackle piracy, you should embrace talking about it and come at it from the perspective of trying to convince as many people as possible to stop doing it — even to stop doing it so much would be helpful.
I think a few posts tackling the absurdity of the movie industry would help rally people to your cause, too — do you know I got charged $16 dollars to see Thor today, just for the ticket? I damn near walked away, had not my friend said he was going to see that particular show at that particular time, and at that particular theater. Beyond a shadow of a doubt, the movie industry (like the music industry before it) has sowed at least some of the seeds of why people pirate movies, and if you want to see piracy reduced, you’ve got to be critical of the industry itself when it acts ridiculous in ways that are at least as energetic as this post. I think the perfect arena to start in is the issue of 3D — charging half the cost of the ticket extra has *got* to end when the glasses cost about 15 cents to produce and the film production costs of adding 3D don’t justify that extra expense for the ticket.
Discussing piracy is encouraged. Tolerating people wasting time trying to justify it? That is absurd.
So you paid $16 to see a movie. It was your choice to walk away. You chose not to.
Movies are a treat. A pleasure. Not a right. They can charge whatever they want and you can choose to see it or not.
You don’t have to agree with the pricing. But when you pay it anyways, you kind of defeat your point. The only way to protest theater pricing is not to pay. They charge as much as they want because you WILL pay. Just like gas prices.
Always a choice.
They cant simply charge what ever they want. It would screw ryem over in te long run
They charge what they think people will pay. They gently nudge the prices up and attendance doesn’t decline.
People have been complaining about theater prices as long as there have been theaters. I have never seen the price suddenly drop. Even “cheap Tuesday” isn’t the same as before. Most places it was half price Tuesday. Now its “somewhat discounted Tuesday” and people still pay.
i don’t get why people complain about prices. if you cant afford to go on a Friday night or a Saturday night? go for a day that is cheaper. I go to an IMAX on Tuesday in Providence RI and its only six bucks. if i don’t have a lot of money i just wont eat anything as i don’t go there to eat. there are ways to go around paying a lot of money with out braking the law.
I *will* choose not to go to that theater for the big epic action showings in their big screen again, it was much more expensive than other, better options not too far away. As I said in my post, I didn’t actually have a ‘choice’ in the matter, lest I was going to abandon my friend. My only point is when theaters do those sorts of things, it drives people away, and many of those people are going to be the people who pirate.
Do I condone their choice? Absolutely not. If they’re not going to pay, then just don’t watch it; my only point is that theaters aren’t helping, and certainly the studios themselves aren’t applying pressure to get theaters to keep the costumers happy and price these new options fairly.
PS: As for the ‘they charge what people will pay’ meme, I completely disagree. There were maybe 15 people in a theater on a Friday night that had a 500+ person capacity, the biggest theater in the place. Had I driven another 20 minutes, I could have seen it in a nicer theater, with leather seats, a beautiful IMAX screen and 3D for $12 at Jordan’s, a place which sells out almost all its showings of pretty much any movie it has, and you bet your bottom dollar I’ll be doing that instead next time around for a big film like Thor.
But driving that extra distance means I’ll be less inclined to go see a movie, which means I’ll go see fewer movies over all… so I hope you can see what I mean when I say the theaters and studios aren’t doing themselves any favors. I won’t pirate, because I agree, I think that’s wrong — but I’ll be spending less money on going to see movies, and if there’s too many people who make that same choice, we’ll have significantly fewer options. The critical point? *We’ve already starting to see that.* There’s been significant, and rapid, declines in the number of movies made just over the past few years. If you want to see a plethora of quality choices remain, I think you have a duty to be even handed in this matter: implore people not to pirate, but encourage theaters and studios to take on practices that make it more enticing to go see the movies on the Big Screen, including not price gouging on movies with 15-cent-to-manufacture 3D glasses.
I went to some new theater to see Thor 3D. Six dollar mark up. Ok, no big deal. However, the glasses handed to me, and everyone, were not in the sealed baggies, and had obviously been “cleaned and sterilized.” This is apparently a growing trend to be “green.”
Bah.
I agree with you though. You have to be careful about coming out and saying that this is how you are going to police your community on here. It could have a negative impact. People may leave entirely, people on both sides of the argument.
Also, you could just start seeing people become more aggressive, and then you are going to spend a lot of time deleting and weeding through the BS.
Good on ya though.
You paid $16 to see Thor.
A high price…yes. but you paid it.
If the high prices bothered you that much then find a theater that shows it in 2D or wait until it comes out on DVD or Redbox or Netflix.
Rodney has every right in the world to delete comments on this site. It is his website, he owns it, he runs it, he can do whatever he wants with it. If people are on the comment threads that are posting links to torrent sites or otherwise supporting illegal acts such as piracy he has every right to delete those comments for two reasons. First, they are not supportive comments that feed discussion, which is what this site is about. Secondly, they support an illegal act that The Movie Blog is not associated with or wants any sliver of a link to.
First of all, where did I suggest piracy was ok? I didn’t. I went out of my way to say it *wasn’t* ok. Second of all, I didn’t choose that time and theater and got stuck there because of prior plans. I could more afford to flush an extra $5 or 6 bucks down the toilet than my plans, so I sucked it up and went in with the notion that they’d be losing my business from there on out.
All that said, regardless of whatever price I paid, the point isn’t the price, the point is the result of the price. On a Friday, in the biggest theater at the cinema, with 3D and IMAX on the #1 movie at the box office, there *may* have been 15 people at that showing. Clearly that says, to me, that people chose not to go to it because of its absurd price. At an IMAX/3D theater not far away, with nice leather seats to boot, it would have been $12, and that showing would have probably been sold out or close to it. Who made more money that night? Which of those two models seems like the way to go?
I think it’s safe to say we all want more movies, and none of us expect it to be free. But not expecting a movie to be free is very different than metaphorically pissing on their costumers, and that’s not the road ahead to more movies and keeping the theater experience profitable.
$16 bucks for Thor? That’s your own fault, my man. Nobody held a gun to your head and forced you to pay that price. I know I couldn’t afford it, which is why I pay $7 for a matinée 2D showing.
It was a suck-it-up-and-pay it moment, or a abandon-best-friend-who-I-see-a-few-times-a-year moment. I could afford the $16, I couldn’t afford not to see my friend. I tried to make that clear in my post without being too specific about the circumstances, but I guess I just made it more confusing.
Next time I go see a movie, it won’t be there. There are cheaper, better options around for big screen showings, they’re just a little further away. Had I known ahead of time what the price would be, I would have made different plans, even if out of principal.
I just want to say that this Ryan who posted above is a different ryan than the one who posted comments on the previous post (that would me). I have some thoughts that I will share later.